0:00 It's almost, you can't turn on the news and not hear about how we're protecting Israel or Epstein was a part of Israel. Israel's not the center of everything. I am the center of everything. He says, if you believe Moses, you would believe me because he wrote of me. Now imagine if I said, I am his holiness. I am the holiness of God myself. I know you've done a lot of things on Israel and I want to know what is the biblical view of Israel in the Bible. That Paul actually refers to two different Israels, which many people have never thought of. Steve, a lot of people have been asking me about Israel. In fact, I got a call the other day, even telling me that the way that someone can gauge someone's spirituality is how they refer to Israel.
0:51 I know you've done a lot of things on Israel and I want to know what is the biblical view of Israel in the Bible. Yeah. I appreciate you having me on again. The Israel topic has many moving parts. It's a big issue. It's a huge issue. As you mentioned, so many Christians are focusing on the Middle East, on the rebuilding of the temple, on a Middle East Armageddon. And in many minds, how you relate to Israel, like you said, is a barometer of your spiritual life. So I think I have a little bit of clout on this topic because I do have a job. I have a Jewish background. I grew up in a Jewish home in the Hollywood Hills, Southern California. As I mentioned on a previous program that we did, told you my story. And where this relates to the topic of Israel is that for the first 20 years of my life, I was Jewish, but I had no spiritual life.
1:47 Not at all. I was a cultural Jew. Grew up and, you know, it just, there was no spirituality. There was no prayer. There was no Bible study. We didn't go to synagogue. We didn't go to church. And after I became a Christian, when I finally came to believe in Jesus, I discovered in the New Testament that Paul actually refers to two different Israels, which many people have never thought of. And it's just like we all have two eyes. You know, we have two ears, two hands, two feet. And in the New Testament, there's two Israels. So one Israel, and I'll just show you this text so people know that I'm not just saying, I'm not just bringing this out of nowhere. But in 1 Corinthians chapter 10, Paul, and you can, it's interesting to look at Paul who wrote most of the New Testament. His original name was Saul, and he was Jewish, just like I was Jewish, and still am Jewish. And Saul was conscientiously dedicated to the New Testament. Rounding up and gathering the Jewish believers in Jesus.
3:02 Oh, yeah. And, you know, bringing them to Jerusalem, bringing them to trial, and even he'd be fine if they were killed. Yeah. Just like Stephen was stoned, and Saul was right there gathering the clothes or the coats of those who needed some more room so they could, you know, freely, yeah, use the rocks and kill Stephen. So Saul was Jewish, just like I was, was Jewish or am Jewish. But he went through a transformation. On the way to Damascus, his eyes were opened, and Jesus appeared to him, and in this blazing light, and Saul was knocked down, and a voice said to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? And Saul said, who are you, Lord? Who's talking to me? And then the response was, and this is, I believe, in Acts chapter 9. The response was, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. And Saul was persecuting Christ in the person of his people, his saints.
4:06 So when he, you know, tried to kill the Christians, he was really persecuting Christ. So he went through a transformation, and so then his name was changed to Paul. And he was still Jewish, but he was, you know, kind of a fleshy Israelite, and then he became a spiritual Israelite. So in 1 Corinthians, and that's what happened to me. In 1 Corinthians chapter 10, verse 18, Paul said, behold Israel after the flesh. So we've got to keep that in mind. In the New Testament, there's something called Israel after the flesh. And then in Galatians chapter 6, verse 16, he talks about the Israel of God that is made up of Jews who believe in Jesus and Gentiles who come in and who believe in Jesus too. And another verse is in, in Romans chapter 9.
5:00 And while you're going there, the Israel of God, they came in because even Peter had that dream, right? Of the, all the different things, he said, kill and eat. And he said, no, Lord, I will not. Right. And they were bringing in the Gentiles. That's right, because those unclean animals represented, God used them to represent the Gentiles. And he said that. And that's what, you know, Peter thought the Jews were, I mean, the non-Jews were unclean. I can't go eat with them. And so you've got Cornelius up north who's sending his, who has this vision and the voice of God says to him, or an angel says to him, send three men down to Joppa to find Peter and bring him up to you to tell you what his message is. And so these three men are on the way and Peter is on the roof praying. And this sheet comes down in this vision with all these unclean animals. And then Peter says, I've never eaten and I can't eat these unclean animals. And then the Lord says to him, don't call unclean what I have now called clean.
6:08 And then the vision, the sheet went up. And so Peter's thinking about this. And while he's thinking, what in the world is the Lord trying to say to me? There's a knock on the door. And the knock is those three Gentiles coming from Cornelius. So the vision happens three times. And then the Gentiles, there's three of them. And finally, by the time Peter gets to Cornelius' house the next day, he figures it out. And then he told Cornelius, he says, you know, it's not lawful for me as a Jew to eat or to come into your house because you're a Gentile. And then he said in Acts, I believe it's 1028, Peter said, but God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. And he showed him through that vision. So he was referring back to that. That's right. So he figured it out. Three Gentiles, three times the vision that the voice says, you know, writhe, Peter, kill and eat.
6:58 And so he figures out that God was trying to tell him that the Gentiles should not be considered unclean. You should reach, it's time to reach the Gentiles. And Saul became Paul to reach the Gentiles. Peter then had his eyes open, time to reach the Gentiles. But the Jewish people in the time of Jesus were very prejudiced against the Gentiles. And God was trying to, Jesus was trying to break that, that prejudice down and get them to think broader. And so Gentiles, Gentiles are coming in. And so when Paul said in Galatians 6, 16, when he talks about the Israel of God in verse 14, he says, circumcision doesn't mean anything or uncircumcision doesn't mean anything, but what really counts is a new creation. It's a new person. It's not whether you're, you know, circumcised as a Jew, whether you're not, the important thing is that you are a follower of Jesus Christ as a new creation. And so the Israel of God in verse 16, Galatians 6, 16 is a composite.
7:56 Israel, it's composed of Jews who believe in Jesus and the Gentiles who have come in, who are united with the Jews who believe in Jesus. And you have Gentiles who believe in Jesus and they together become part of the Israel of God. And that's a totally different way of looking at it from the way that Saul looked at it when he was still Saul. So Saul eventually became Paul. And let me go back to Romans in Romans chapter nine, verse 12. 1, 2, and 3, he says, Paul wrote, I say the truth in Christ. I'm not lying. My conscience is also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit that I have a great heaviness and a continual sorrow in my heart, or I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to the flesh who are Israelites.
8:49 So just like in first Corinthians, he talked about behold, Israel left to the flesh. Here he talks about the Israelites who haven't accepted Jesus. He says, they're Israel, Israelites after the flesh. And so back to my story, when I was growing up in the Hollywood Hills and I got it as a teenager, I got lost in the world of drugs and, and the parties and the discos and the dancing and the marijuana, et cetera, the rock and roll. I was Jewish, but I was an Israelite according to the flesh. I was just a, a, a descendant somewhere back there. My dad had a rabbi in his line and probably maybe somehow trace. My family, Wahlberg is a Jewish name back to, uh, to, to Jews back to, you know, maybe all the way back to Abraham. I don't know, but anyway, but, but it doesn't matter because I was still an Israelite, according to the flesh, I had no spiritual life. I didn't read the Bible. Uh, I was zealous for drugs, just like Saul was zealous to kill the Christians. But when God opened his eye, his eyes, he moved him from being part of the Israel of the flesh to being part of the Jewish part of the Israel of God centered in Jesus Christ.
9:58 And that's similar to what happened to me when I became a Christian, my eyes were opened and I was still Jewish. I still am, but now I'm, I consider myself to be an Israelite according, uh, to the spirit. So here's another verse Romans nine, verse six, Paul says, not as though the word of God has taken an effect for, they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. So he says. They're not all Israel, meaning they're not all part of God's Israel who are of Israel, meaning of the, the lineage going back to Abraham. That would be a very confusing verse. Cause right now, I mean, even in politics, we're very focused on, on, on being over there in Israel and then the red heifer and how we, uh, I mean, maybe not my church, you're our church, but maybe there's a lot of Christians, even in our government that are focused on Israel as a, as a physical entity and the Bible actually says that there are two Israels, what's going on. That's right. And we can see those two Israels in the time of Jesus. You've got, uh, the Sanhedrin, you've got people like Saul, you've got Annas, Caiaphas, you've got, uh, you know, this whole group of Jewish leaders, but they were totally opposed to Jesus.
11:17 They tried to trap him. They, they had spies go after him. They finally, you know, pressured Pilate. Uh, to put him to death, but these were Jews, but then at the same time, you have, you have Peter, James, John, uh, Paul, you know, Saul who had become Paul. You've got the disciples, you've got the early church growing in the, on the day of Pentecost, and these were mostly Jews. It was, there was 3000 Jews that were baptized on the day of Pentecost through the preaching of Peter as the Holy spirit used him. So these two groups of Jews were developing there in the time of Jesus. There were those of the flesh. Who were opposing Christ and Jews that were being, that were open to the Holy spirit and they were becoming believers in Jesus. So you have two groups. And in the book of Acts, you see those two groups really crystallized when Saul, who was trying to kill the Christians on the way to Damascus, he became Paul.
12:13 Uh, he started going into the synagogue and preaching that Jesus is really the Messiah and his greatest enemies were not the Romans at that time, his greatest enemies were the unbelievers. So he started dying. driven by a lot of people who were believing Jews who were sad that they had lost a, a warrior who was terrorizing the Christians. And now he had joined them. He joined the Christian. So you look at what happened with, with Paul, they hunted him, you know, they, they plotted, finally they had him, he was arrested. and the Romans were guarding him and they made a plot. It's a whole group of Jews made a plot that we're not gonna eat for 40 days or 40 nights until we have killed Paul. And you look at the book of Acts and his greatest enemies were the unbelieving Jews who were out to get him. So when I think of Israel, I think of these two groups.
13:03 It's not just a homogenous group, it's a mixture. And then if you think about Israel today, there are believers in Jesus over in Israel. There are Jewish believers in Christ. And there are other Jewish people that want nothing to do with Jesus. They're totally opposed to Christianity. They're on the opposite side. So when we talk about Israel or Jews, according to the New Testament, we need to differentiate. Which group are we talking about? And I do believe that God loves all Jews, whether they're of the flesh or whether they're spiritual. He loves all Christians, whether we're just going through the motions or whether we're true followers of Jesus. He loves the people in the world. Jesus said, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. So Jesus wants to reach everybody. And that was what God was trying to tell Peter, time to reach everybody.
13:57 Jesus is not just for the Jews, he's for everybody. And that's the message of the New Testament. So when we think about the end times in Israel, some people ask me, Steve, do you believe that Israel has a role in the end times? And my response is, oh yes, definitely. I believe Israel is at the center of the storm. But the question is, which Israel are we talking about? Paul said, they are not all Israel who are of Israel. Are we talking about Israel of the flesh or the Israel of God in Jesus Christ? And a lot of people just don't think about that. They think of all Jews. Some people just demonize Jews. They think all Jews are bad. They're behind the bankers and the globalists. And they're all bad. They're trying to control the world. I don't buy that. My family was Jewish, but none of them were in that category.
14:46 But then some people think on the other side, every Jew is almost like, you're Jewish. You are, you're the chosen. You're the ones. And that was part of what was the problem with the rabbis. My father was Abraham. Yeah, they said, yeah, Abraham's our father. And we're the special people. And God is. God's going to bless us. And then when the Messiah comes, their view of what the Messiah was going to do is also significant. The rabbi's view of the Messiah was, he's going to come. He's going to free us from the Roman rule, because they were basically occupied. They were an occupied people who were living under Roman rule in the time of Jesus. And so the rabbi said, when the Messiah comes, he's going to conquer those Romans. He's going to free us from their oppression.
15:35 He's going to sit on the throne. He's going to sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem. And he's going to rule the nations. And we are the chosen people. And he's going to exalt us. He's going to exalt us and condemn the Romans and rule from Jerusalem. That was the rabbi's view. And when Jesus came, he didn't come to do that. He didn't come to exalt them, the rabbis. He didn't come to sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem. He came to die on a cross, to pay the price for the sins of the whole world, Jew and Gentile, everybody. And that was not a Messiah that they were interested in. So that's why they rejected him, because you could say their eschatology or their sequence of what's going to happen is, the Messiah was a military man who was going to do all these things.
16:31 And Jesus didn't come to do that. They were looking for the lion. Yeah. That's right. They were looking for the lion. They missed the lamb. And Jesus is going to come as a lion. But when he came to earth 2,000 years ago, it wasn't lion time. It was lamb time. And they misinterpreted that. And so when we think of Israel today, it's not just so simple to say that every Jew over in Israel, all the Israelis, all the cabinet and Mossad and everything that has to do with Israel, is just automatically under the special blessing of God because they're Jews. My response is, if you go back to the Old Testament, you look at Deuteronomy 28, you look at Leviticus 26, God was very, very clear that if you obey me and if you do my will, I will bless you. But if you don't keep my commandments and if you stray away from me, you will be cursed.
17:31 So it's an individual thing. It's not a national thing based on the choices that individuals make. You can't be born into it. That's right. You've got to make the choice. So I'm going to ask you not a political question but a current event question, I guess. What do you think is going on in current events then with all this Israel stuff? Because there's so much about Israel right now in current events. You can't turn on the news and not hear about how we're protecting Israel or Epstein was a part of Israel or maybe some Israel that has gotten in and we went to war because Israel said so. Is it all tied together with this and how we understand Israel in the Bible? Well, it's not as simple. You know, people would often come to Jesus and they, like in Matthew 22, they said, should we pay taxes to Caesar or not?
18:25 Is it A, Jesus, is it A or B? And then Jesus would say, it's actually C. He would give a different answer. He said, give the things that are Caesar's to Caesar. Give to God the things that are God's. And he got around their tricky question by giving them an answer that they weren't expecting. And Jesus did that a lot. And so when we think about what's happening in Israel right now, my conviction is that God has given us a standard in his word. And that standard is reflected in the Ten Commandments. And the Ten Commandments are summary. They're summarized in the principle of loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. And in the book of Micah, chapter 6, verse 8, one of my favorite verses, it says, He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you, but to do justice, do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God.
19:19 And God, you know, that's his requirement for everybody. So when we think about what's happening in Israel, you know, there's no question in my mind that on October 7, you know, whenever the year was, I forgot the year, when Hamas, you know, came and butchered all these Jews in the name of Allah, you know, there's no question in my mind that was an evil act. That was terrorism. They were not doing justly. They were not loving mercy. They were not walking humbly with God. They were killing people. And I wouldn't say, I mean, it's complicated. There are times when Jewish people do not do justly to those who are not good. They are not Jews. And then there are other times when it's the Arabs or the Muslims or, and there's a lot of Arabs that are Christians, too. But anytime anybody, bottom line is anytime anybody violates the principles of justice and mercy and love in the way you treat other people, that's wrong.
20:21 Yeah. And the relationship between the Muslims and the Jews is not a simple subject. You know, there's the Palestinians. There's the Israelis. How do they relate to each other? Some relate in a good way. There are Palestinians that are happy to be part of the State of Israel. And there are other Israelis that don't like the Palestinians. And, you know, it's all across the board. Just like it was in the time of Jesus. You've got some Romans that are cruel and some Romans that had faith. You've got some Jews that were doing the right thing. And then you've got other Jews. Like, you know, Annas and Caiaphas that were on the wrong side. Yeah. And so people need to be responded to and related to based on principles of morality and justice and fairness.
21:13 That's what Jesus is all about. So if there are Israelis and Jews in the Middle East that are being unjustly treated by Muslims, that's wrong. And if there are Arabs or Palestinians that are being unjustly treated. Sometimes by the Jewish people. That's wrong. Because Jesus doesn't support. He's no respecter of persons. He treats everybody fairly. He loves everyone. And so that's the way I look at the basic principles of life. Now when it comes to all the politics of what's happening over there. I don't get too deep into that because I'm not there. Yeah. I'm over here. I live in Tennessee. I don't live, you know, in Israel. So it's hard for me to comment. On a lot of those things. You know, if Hezbollah sends a drone or a rocket to try to kill innocent Jews, that's wrong.
22:06 And if Israelis, you know, bulldoze the houses of some Palestinians because they just want to expand, you know, that's wrong. If they're trying to protect themselves from terrorism, trying to create a buffer in Israel. So there's more those that are favorable toward the Jewish state. You know, I can appreciate that. And so. But I do think from a scriptural perspective, it's not biblical to just look at all of the Israelis over in Israel and put them all in one broad category that they're either all evil or they're all good. I don't think life is so simple. Yeah. And so, you know, we should support Israel when they do what's right. Yeah. When they do what's wrong, God doesn't support that. And neither should we. And we should evaluate every situation in, you know, on its own merits.
23:02 But I do think that a lot of the Christian community's support of Israel, it's almost like a blank check. You know, whatever they do. I know. It's okay because they are the chosen people of God. And that concept needs to be tested in the New Testament to see what Jesus taught. John the Baptist, as you mentioned, when the Pharisees came to his baptism, John said to them, he said, don't think in yourselves and say to yourself, Abraham's our father. And then John said, because God can raise up children to Abraham from these rocks. And then he said, the ax is laid to the root of the tree. And he said, every tree that doesn't bear good fruit is going to be cut down and thrown into the fire. That's what John the Baptist said.
23:56 That's what Jesus said to Jewish leaders. So he said, you may be Jewish. You may have Abraham as your father. But if you're not bearing good fruit to the glory of God, you're doomed. And Jesus taught the same thing. He said many times all throughout his ministry, especially Matthew 23. He said, woe to you, scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites. And he listed all these things that they were doing. And he was weeping. He wasn't enjoying this. He was weeping. And then he finally said, oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem. You who killed the prophets. And stole those who are sent to you. How often I would have gathered you like a hen gathers her chickens. But you were not willing. You wouldn't do it. And then he said, your house is left to you desolate. And that desolation took place in 70 AD when the Roman armies came and destroyed Jerusalem. And burned the temple down to the ground and took a million Jews captives.
24:51 And it was because they had sinned. As a nation in rejecting their own Messiah. And in killing the Christians. The Jewish Christians. He had unbelieving Jews killing Christian Jews. And finally the Lord said, consequences are coming to you because of this. So wasn't there a time, though, that God only focused on Israel? And is that considered a dispensation or of a different time when God focused on everything else? Where does that word come from and what is that? Yeah, the technical term is dispensationalism. And I've got a book that I've been reading. This is an interesting book. Somebody recommended it to me. I've been reading it. It's called The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism.
25:39 And it traces the entrance of a particular theology into a mainstream Christianity. Starting in the 1830s and 40s. With a man named John Nelson Darby. And Darby's dispensationalism ideas. The rapture and different things. Eventually got into the Schofield Reference Bible. The footnotes. Eventually came to America. Became part of the Protestant seminaries. It contributed heavily to the theology of the Dallas Theological Seminary. Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. Dallas. Los Angeles. And the basic idea of dispensationalism developed by Darby. Is this idea that God deals with humanity in different dispensations. So there's the dispensation of the law.
26:32 And there's the dispensation of the Jews. Of Israel. And then there's the dispensation of the church. And the idea is that when Israel rejected, at least the national leadership, rejected Jesus. Because not all Jews rejected Jesus. It's not fair to say the Jews rejected Christ. Because, you know, Peter was a Jew. John was a Jew. James was a Jew. They didn't reject Christ. And so that's an overgeneralization. But the idea basically is that when Israel as a nation rejected their Messiah. Which led to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. That God ended the dispensation of the Jew. And then he initiated the dispensation of the church. And the church has been here for 2,000 years. Until the rapture.
27:22 As Dr. Darby said. And when the rapture comes. God's going to remove the church from the earth. And then he's going to refocus on the Jew. Oh wow. That's dispensationalism. And the whole idea of a rapture. And the seven years of tribulation. And the refocus on Israel. And the rebuilding of the temple. And all the nations gathering against the Jews at Armageddon. This is dispensationalism. That was popularized in the 1830s and 40s. By John Nelson Darby in England. And then it got into the footnotes of the Schofield Reference Bible. C.I. Schofield. And then that Bible became very popular in America. Especially in the Protestant seminaries. Like Dallas. Dallas Theological Seminary. And then Hal Lindsey was a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary.
28:14 And he wrote the book, The Late Great Planet Earth. Which made into a nonfiction book. The Theology of Darby. And then Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins in the 90s. They teamed up. And Tim LaHaye was also a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary. And they teamed up together to co-author the popular Left Behind series. So Hal Lindsey's book was nonfiction. And the Left Behind series is fiction. And that's where through novels and storytelling. Of the rapture. All these people disappearing. And then the seven years of tribulation coming. And then the rise of the Antichrist. And the rebuilding of the temple. And the final Middle East war against the Jews. Which is Armageddon. That was the making mainstream of the theology that really went back to Darby.
29:13 Wow. Wow. That's right. And that's called dispensationalism. And dispensationalism is like. A pair of glasses. That people assume is right. And they read their Bibles. And the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. With dispensational glasses on. So they believe okay. We're now in the church age. But when the church age is removed. Because the church is taken up in the rapture. Then God's going to refocus on the Jews. During the seven years of tribulation. That's dispensationalism. So dispensation is like saying. A section of time. God dealt with people at a certain way. And then he dealt with someone a different way. Here. And then in a different way. At this time. That's right. So he's grouped up in a different. Different. Ways. Ages. I guess. Yeah. That's right. And you can do. You can research dispensationalism.
30:02 And find out exactly what those different ages are. In a precise way. But it's. You know. It's also interesting that. Darby. Was really developing his theology in the 1830s and 1840s. At the same. And that was in England. Or Ireland and England. And it was at the same time. Across the Atlantic Ocean. That William Miller. And the great advent movement. Was growing. And Miller. Was teaching. What we call historicism. So kind of in a nutshell. There's three ways. Three different glasses. You can read. Or wear. When you're reading the prophecies. And this is a generalization. There's one pair of glasses. Which are called preterist. The preterist glasses. And preterism. Is a school. Of theology.
30:50 That basically says. That the prophecies. Were mostly fulfilled. In 70 AD. Or during the time of Jesus. Preterism. Past. Yeah. Preterism. Preterism. Past. Right. So the. So when Jesus talked about the end of the world. Preteracy. The end of the world. Happening in 70 AD. It was the end of the Jewish world. When. The Bible talks about the beast. Or the. Or Antichrist. Preterists will say. That was. That was Nero. He's the 666 man. Okay. And all the prophecies. Happened. During the first century. That's the preterist view. And then the other. Another view. Is the. A futurist view. Which is pretty much. Where everybody is today. Or. Or at least. Most. Prophecy minded people. And those glasses. Say. You know. After the rapture. That's when. Everything comes. In the future. Oh. Seven years. The. The rise of the Antichrist.
31:37 The temple being rebuilt. The Middle East Armageddon. That's futurism. Now. There's another school. Which is called. Historicism. When you put those glasses on. You see. Prophecy. Being fulfilled. In history. Yeah. Historic. The historic. Oh I see. Approach. Which is just like. When you think of Daniel 2. The dream of Nebuchadnezzar. Who had the. You know. The big metal man. With the head of gold. Breast and arms of silver. Yeah. Belly and thighs of bronze. And then the legs of iron. And then the feet. Part of iron. Part of clay. And then the rock comes. Representing the coming. Of Jesus Christ. And the kingdom of God. That starts. Daniel interprets this. Dream. In Daniel 2. And the head of gold. Was Babylon. And then it was followed. By another kingdom. Which was. Medo-Persia.
32:25 Followed by. Greece. Followed by Rome. And then the Roman Empire. Broke down. Into the ten. Ten toes. And then. All the way down. At the end of time. You have the rock coming. Which is the return. Of Jesus Christ. And that's a. Historicist. View. From Babylon. All the way down. At the end of time. And so. Protestant reformers. In the 1500s. They developed. Historicism. And they didn't. Originate it. There were others. Prior to that. But they settled in. On the idea. That prophecy. Has been going on. Down through history. Yes. There were prophecies. Fulfilled. When Jerusalem. Was destroyed. Yes. There were. But then. There was. A great apostasy. Like Paul. Talked about. In the second. Thessalonians. Of the papal.
33:12 Power. In history. And that. That's why. The reformers. Left. The Catholic Church. And became Protestants. Because they finally. Figured it out. That this power. Is predicted. In the Bible. And we gotta get out. Yeah. And so. You know. They see. Prophecy. Going on. Through history. And William Miller. Was a historicist. He. He. And the early. Adventists. In the 1830s. And 40s. The papal. Power. When. Baptists. Were persecuted. For a long time. In. England. England. And colonial America. Because they didn't believe in infant baptism. They read their Bibles. And said baptism. Is for adults. Or at least for. Consenting people. By immersion. And in Europe.
33:59 It was baptism. Of babies. In England. The Church of England. It was baptizing babies. In the colonies. Massachusetts. Bay colony. If you had a baby. And didn't bring your baby. To the church. To get baptized. You were in big trouble. Oh wow. And the Baptists. Were heavily persecuted. In England. In the colonies. They were fined. They were whipped. They were beaten. They were. They were taxed. They were banished. Like Roger Williams. Was banished. From the Massachusetts. Bay colony. And then he finally started. Providence. Rhode Island. Which led to the state. Of Rhode Island. Which was a free state. And so the Baptists. They understood. I was reading a book recently. Where the early Baptists. They believed that. Infant baptism. Was a badge of the whore. They believed. It goes right back. To Rome. And they knew. Yeah. Who the whore was. Who Rome was. Who the papal power was.
34:46 And so the Millerites. You know. They preached that too. They preached the same thing. At the same time. So Darby's. Developing dispensationalism. In England. In the 1830s. And 40s. And Miller. And the Adventists. Are preaching historicism. Yeah. And they're. They're competing. They're competing theologies. And as. Darbyism. Took hold. In America. As. Adventism. Was growing. Now. We have this clash. You know. Which one is right. Is. Is Darby right. That there. There's really no. Prophecy. Being fulfilled. In the. In the history. Of the Christian church. And then. When. The rapture comes. The church is gone. And God refocuses. On the Jew. Dispensationalism. Or. Is. Historicism. Right. That we're dealing with. The. Well.
35:36 With the rise. Of the papacy. And with the United States. Of America. And how they're working. Together. As we're getting closer. To the end of time. And because. So many. Evangelicals. Are looking. To the Middle East. They're not seeing. The. The strengthening. Of. Of Catholicism. Catholicism. Yeah. And its connection. With America. And the threat. To religious. Freedom. And what's happening. In America. And. Again. Going back. To your. Your channel. Your focus. On spiritualism. And the false. Miracles. You know. Protestants. Aren't looking. For that. They're not looking. For a prophecy. About false. Miracles. Which we see. In Revelation 13. Because their focus. Is the Middle East. And we're going. To be gone. We're going. To be out. Of here. So we don't need. To worry. About that. All that comes. During the seven. Years. And it's all.
36:25 When God. Refocuses. On the Jew. And they don't see. That there's. Two groups. Of Jews. And we've got. To look at this. From the light. Of Jesus. In the New Testament. And one more thing. As I. Talk to Christians. About this. You know. Sometimes. They really. Get stirred up. About this. But they. One thing. That we all. Agree on. If you're. A real. Strong. Christian. Believer. Whether you're. Pro-rapture. Dispensational. Or not. We all believe. That Jesus. Should be. The center. Of the Bible. Yeah. And what happened. In the first. Century. With the rabbis. The rabbis. Their theology. Was. Israel. Is the center. And the Messiah. Is going. To exalt. Israel. Conquered. The Romans. And ruled. From Jerusalem. Jesus. Theology. Was different. He said. Israel's.
37:11 Not the center. Of everything. I am. The center. Of everything. He says. If you. Believe. Moses. You would. Believe. Me. Because. He. Wrote. Of me. And you. Search. The scriptures. Because. You. Think. That. And I. Think. That's. Something. That. Christians. Really. Need. To. Deal. With. Who's. The center. Yes. Of. The. End. Is. It. The. State. Of. The. Jewish. State. Or. Is. It. Jesus. Christ. And. Those. Who. Follow. Jesus. Christ. Whether. You're. A. Or. Gentile. You. Know. It. Reminds. Me. Back. In. The. Bible. Times. God. Did. Create. Israel.
38:10 Jesus. There. Two. There's. Always. Been. Two. Groups. All. The. Way. Back. To. Cain. And. Abel. They. Were. Both. Worshippers. Of. God. At. The. Gates. Of. The. Garden. Abel. Offered. The. Lamb. Cain. Offered. His. Fruit. And. The. Fire. Burned. Up. The. Lamb. But. Didn't. Burn. The. Fruit. And. So. Cain. Got. Mad. At. Abel. And. He. Killed. Him. And. If. You. At. The. History. Of. Israel. You. Have. Two. Groups. Among. Them. You. Have. Them. Coming. Out. Of. Egypt. This. Whole. Big. Multitude. Of. Of. Hebrews. They. Weren't. Actually. Jews. Yet. Because. Jew. Comes. From. Judaism. Later. On. But. They. Were. Hebrews. And. When. By. Time. You. Get. To. Mount. Sinai. God. You. Gives. Moses. The. Ten. Commandments. Up. On. The. Mountain. And. Moses. Comes. Down. From. The. Mountain. And. He. And. Joshua. And. And.
38:55 Joshua. Says. There's. A. War. Going. On. In. The. Camp. I. Can. Hear. Shouting. And. Moses. Says. It. Doesn't. Sound. Like. A. War. To. Me. It. Sounds. Like. Singing. And. He. Comes. Down. And. They. See. All. These. You. Know. Hebrews. And. The. Mixed. Multitude. With. The. Egyptians. And. They're. All. Bowing. Down. On. A. Golden. Calf. And. So. Judgment. Fell. Upon. Them. And. And. They. All. Died. At. Least. Those. Who. Wouldn't. Repent. From. Worshipping. The. Golden. Calf. So. God. Purged. Israel. From. Those. That. Were. Just. Israelites. Of. The. Flesh. That's. Right. Everlasting. Gospel. And. Give. It. To. Everyone. Else. Which. Was. Supposed. To. Happen. In. Israel. Way. That's. Right. Israel. Was. A. Was. Entrusted. With. The. Sanctuary. Service. And. The. Sacrifice. Of. Lambs. That. Pointed. Forward. To. The. Messiah. And.
39:54 There. Were. All. Kinds. Of. Prophecies. In. The. Testament. Like. The. Book. Of. Isaiah. That. Talked. About. Reaching. The. Gentiles. Reaching. The. Nations. And. God's. Plan. For. His. People. His. Faithful. People. Of. Israel. Was. That. They. Wouldn't. Build. Walls. Between. Them. And. The. Gentiles. But. That. They. Would. Be. Examples. To. Them. And. A. Light. To. Them. To. Bring. More. And. More. People. To. God. Just. Like. Abraham. Wasn't. When. God. First. Called. Him. He. Wasn't. Even. Circumcised. He. Was. He. Wasn't. A. Jew. He. Wasn't. Circumcised. And. That's. What. Paul. Focuses. On. In. The. Book. Of. Romans. That. God. Called. An. Uncircumcised. Non. Jew. And. He. Called. Him. To. Be. Our. Father. And. That. All. Nations. Through. His. Seed. Would. Be. Blessed. All. Nations.
40:39 And. God's. Plan. Was. Always. To. Use. His. People. To. Reach. The. World. And. Those. Who. Stopped. Doing. That. Then. God. Called. The. Church. Composed. Of. Jews. And. Gentiles. Like. You. Know. The. Church. Like. Peter. Jews. Like. Peter. And. God. Worked. With. Peter. Peter. You. Gotta. Think. Differently. You. Gotta. Think. Differently. That. Those. Don't. Call. Unclean. What. I've. Made. Clean. Time. To. Reach. The. Gentiles. So. If. If. They. Weren't. Doing. It. Back. Then. We. Got. They. Got. Focused. On. Compartmentalizing. Back. Then. Saying. Hey. We. Are. Just. This. Thing. But. God. Was. Saying. No. I'm. Gonna. Work. With. You. The. Same. Way. Throughout. All. Of. History. Could. It. Be. That. The. Same. Trap. Is. Happening. At. The. Future. At. The. According. To. Them. But. A. Present. According. To. Us. Where. People. Get.
41:26 Focused. On. A. Dispensation. Or. A. Grouping. Of. People. At. The. Very. End. Israel. Yes. I. So. And. On. A. Deeper. Level. I. Think. That. Humanity. Is. Naturally. Narcissistic. And. Self-Centered. So. The. Jews. Or. At. Least. You. Know. The. Jewish. People. Many. Of. At. The. Of. Christ. They. Were. Very. Self-Centered. They. Became. Very. Narcissistic. Messiah. Is. Coming. To. Rescue. Us. And. We. Are. Going. To. Be. On. The. Top. And. We. To. Rule. The. Nations. The. Messiah. Is. To. Rule. The. Nations. Through. Us. And. For. Us. So. They. Became. Self-Self-Righteous. And. Christians. Have. Done. The. Same. Thing. Many. Christians. Throughout. History. You. Know. We. We. Tend. To.
42:13 Think. My. Group. Is. We're. The. Only. Ones. And. Even. Was. At. Elijah. He. Said. Lord. I'm. The. Only. One. Left. Just. Me. And. Then. God. Said. No. I. Still. Have. 7,000. That. Haven't. Bowed. The. Need. To. Bail. And. So. The. Tendency. Is. To. Make. Ourselves. Or. Our. Group. The. Exclusive. Favorites. Of. The. Lord. And. We. Can. You. Know. Christians. Can. Do. That. With. The. Jews. Which. Was. Which. Was. A. Part. Of. Their. Own. Problem. We. Don't. Want. To. Exalt. The. Jews. To. Heaven. Because. That's. A. Terrible. Thing. For. Their. Own. Spiritual. Lives. They. Don't. Need. To.
42:59 Be. None. Of. Were. Made. To. Be. The. Center. Of. Attention. You. Know. It's. Like. The. Whole. Social. Media. Influencers. You. Know. If. You. Get. A. Huge. Amount. Of. Likes. And. I'm. Not. Against. Likes. But. You. Know. We're. Not. Designed. To. Be. The. Center. Of. Attention. Jesus. Needs. To. Be. The. Center. Of. Our. Attention. And. We. All. See. Ya. God. Is. Not. Mineral. Of. rav DRAM needs. To. rophy. And.
43:48 To. Be. Teach. And. So. Is. So. The. Move. Oemaker. For. H ね. It's. This. And you look at the history of Christianity, you know, the whole falling away of the papal power and the exaltation of the Pope. I was thinking as I was driving over here how many times media and people refer to Pope Leo XIV as his holiness. Oh, I know. And you think about that. I mean, what does that really mean? So, when they say, when they talk to a man and they call him his holiness, who is his? Who is the his? His holiness. Talking about Jesus' holiness? Yeah, or God's holiness. So, they're saying this man is his holiness.
44:44 Oh, man. The holiness, the holiness of God is this person. Now, imagine if I said I am his holiness. Oh, man. I am the holiness of God myself. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine? And that's really what the Pope, when he allows people to call him his holiness, he should be correcting them, saying, I am not the holiness of God. He should be correcting them, but he doesn't because that's what the papacy thinks, that, you know, the exaltation of a man. Israel, it was the exaltation of a nation. Lucifer, it was the exaltation. It was the exaltation of himself in heaven. The Pharisees, it was the exaltation when the Pharisees said, Lord, I thank you that I'm not like other men, especially like this poor tax collector over here.
45:37 And the tax collector said, God, be merciful to me, a sinner. And we're all sinners. We all meet together level at the foot of the cross, and we all need to learn that God loves Jews and Gentiles. He loves everybody. But the only way that any of us are going to get to heaven is through individualism. And so we're going to have to be truly humbling ourselves, confessing our sins, and believing in Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Do you have any material on this if people want to study further? Oh, yeah, we have a lot of material. Yeah, I'll just mention a few things briefly. So we have a little tract that White Horse Media just came out with called Israel and Armageddon, which is just a little tract that shows that the focus of the New Testament is not the Jewish state. But it is. It's Jesus Christ and the new Jerusalem up in heaven and the Israel of God.
46:31 We have another book about that. It's a little bit larger book. If they want to read a little more, it's called Israel and the End of the World, separating fact from fiction. It goes into more detail. And then if they really want to do a deep dive into all the issues of the rapture and the seven years and the temple and time delusions, it's a bigger book. You know, people have short attention spans these days. So we have a little tract. We have a little bigger book. We have a bigger book. But this one gets into all that. And then we have another book that points people in the right direction about what prophecy is really focusing on in the book of Revelation, which is the light at the end. And none of these are very expensive, and it depends on how deep of a dive. This book is just one that I've been reading, The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism, by a man named Daniel Hummel, which just traces historically the growth of dispensationalism into…
47:26 Oh, my God! …pop culture. Very interesting. Very interesting. Wonderful. Well, this has been enlightening. Thank you so much. You're welcome. This is fascinating. Can you pray for us? Sure, of course. Heavenly Father, thank you that we've been able to have an open discussion about these things. And we pray that the Holy Spirit will lead us to Jesus and to a deeper understanding of the Bible and the end time issues. We do pray that you will open the eyes of the Jewish people. they will see that Jesus is their Messiah and open the eyes of Christians to see that the focus of prophecy is Jesus and those who are followers of Christ. And guide us all as we keep studying your word. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.